Ok..I'm going to chime in as well. Cemetary's are for DEAD people. I know that sounds reall harsh to most..but the people are DEAD and they really don't care. This is not to be meant as disrespectful either. I lost both of my parents and they are both buried in cemetary's that are unique and that *deserve* to be visited. How else are people going to remember the past if they aren't welcome to visit these graves? As for dogs...I'm sure that there are plenty of responsible pet owners out there who would steer a dog bent on "marking" a grave..away from the scene of the crime. If a dog or other domestic animal deficates in a cemetary or any other public area, I would hope that they owner would do what is right and clean up after their animal.

If not..I'll refer back to my original statement..the people are dead..they really don't care...and if there IS an afterlife in which they are looking down upon you from the high almighty..they're probably thinking that you need to focus your energy on more worthwhile issues.

It's not how we respect the dead..it's how we respect the living while we're here alive and on this earth. That's just my personal opinion. You can agree or disagree. It matters not to me.

Hikers and Hounds wrote:
I never read the cemetary thread as it didn't interest me and am staying out of this whole 50+ thing for the same reason. But in reading a recent post the text below caught my eye. I LOVE old cemetaries and have found some wonderful boxes in them. I LOVE dogs, my dog Dude is the best friend I have ever had and my trail buddies will tell you I hate going anywhere without him. But having said that, with the exception of a pet cemetary, I would never take Dude into a cemetary. He is a boy dog and lifts his leg quite frequently to mark, and I would just feel awful if that happened on someones grave. JMHO.

As far as the "anything goes" comment in another post. I am a firm believer in that WHEN IT COMES TO YOUR OWN BOXES. Anything does go. It's my plant, so I make the rules. I try to be specific in my clues so that you know what you're in for and can opt out of hunting for the box if you want. But when it comes to other peoples boxes, it's thier box, thier rules. They were just kind enough to put it out there for me and whoever comes after me to enjoy it. My responsibility is to be discreet, hide it better than when I found it, and leave no trace of myself in the area.

Now cheese it!

By your logic, however, why do you feel dogs don't belong in cemeteries?
IF and only IF there's a sign posted by cemetery management that states "No
Dogs Allowed" should you then have any right to complain about dogs in
cemeteries.

.

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We're actually discussing "rules" in this thread, not cemetery behavior.
Cemetery behavior is the example I used because that was a major complaint
of a poster. I would be the last person who would want to see someone allow
their dog to urinate or defecate on any cemetery monuments or stones.
However, yes I do take my dogs with me to visit cemeteries. My parents'
graves and grandparents' graves included. They loved animals and my animals
are very well behaved. They've gotten too old to be anything other than
well behaved. :-)

The idea is that *if* a person considers that someone else bringing a dog
into a cemetery is "rude", then that person is also making an unwritten
"rule" in their mind about what how they expect others to behave in a
cemetery. If someone finds that allowing children to climb on cemetery
monuments is "rude", then they're making an unwritten "rule" in their mind
that children should not be scampering all over monuments in cemeteries.

It's absolutely no different with letterboxing. If someone gets upset
because someone else didn't seal baggies before packing up the box and
rehiding it, then they're basically saying in their mind that, to that
person, sealing baggies is kind of a "rule" of letterboxing. The same with
rehiding the box as good as or better than a person finds it. If a person
truly doesn't consider that to be a "rule" in their mind, then why in the
world would they complain if it happened? They wouldn't. To the dismayed
person who finds a box out in the open, contents strewn all over the place,
it's become a "rule" in their mind that this shouldn't have
happened........at least not at the hands of humans.

I'm simply pointing out that, whether we like to call it by the word "rule"
or not, there are etiquette principles that govern quite a bit of what we do
in life. I think one of the most enlightening events is when I visit a
foreign country where the culture and etiqette expectations are so very
different than those of the U.S. And my immediate reaction is to think
"Gosh, these people are sure rude!" But they're not really. It's just an
entirely different culture and an entirely different set of etiquette
principles. But that's when I realize just how unconscious my
"expectations" can be. It's like when someone like Emily Post sat down to
write out some "Rules of Etiquette." She didn't exactly call the
"suggestions." :-) She saw what she wrote down to be how the society at
that time expected folks to behave, and thus those were "rules" in her mind.

Like I said, it's just a game of semantics. If someone is saying something
*we* don't like, then we see it as an attempt to "police" us. If someone is
saying something we wholeheartedly agree with, then it's just "good common
sense etiquette that everyone else should know and abide by." :-) But it
all comes down to exactly the same thing. A rule by any other name.....

~~ Mosey ~~

-----Original Message-----
From: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Wendy
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 9:28 PM
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [LbNA] WAS - save us all from the LB police, NOW Cheese it,
the cops!!!


Ok..I'm going to chime in as well. Cemetary's are for DEAD people. I know
that sounds reall harsh to most..but the people are DEAD and they really
don't care. This is not to be meant as disrespectful either. I lost both of
my parents and they are both buried in cemetary's that are unique and that
*deserve* to be visited. How else are people going to remember the past if
they aren't welcome to visit these graves? As for dogs...I'm sure that
there are plenty of responsible pet owners out there who would steer a dog
bent on "marking" a grave..away from the scene of the crime. If a dog or
other domestic animal deficates in a cemetary or any other public area, I
would hope that they owner would do what is right and clean up after their
animal.

If not..I'll refer back to my original statement..the people are
dead..they really don't care...and if there IS an afterlife in which they
are looking down upon you from the high almighty..they're probably thinking
that you need to focus your energy on more worthwhile issues.

It's not how we respect the dead..it's how we respect the living while
we're here alive and on this earth. That's just my personal opinion. You
can agree or disagree. It matters not to me.

Hikers and Hounds wrote:
I never read the cemetary thread as it didn't interest me and am
staying out of this whole 50+ thing for the same reason. But in reading a
recent post the text below caught my eye. I LOVE old cemetaries and have
found some wonderful boxes in them. I LOVE dogs, my dog Dude is the best
friend I have ever had and my trail buddies will tell you I hate going
anywhere without him. But having said that, with the exception of a pet
cemetary, I would never take Dude into a cemetary. He is a boy dog and lifts
his leg quite frequently to mark, and I would just feel awful if that
happened on someones grave. JMHO.

As far as the "anything goes" comment in another post. I am a firm believer
in that WHEN IT COMES TO YOUR OWN BOXES. Anything does go. It's my plant, so
I make the rules. I try to be specific in my clues so that you know what
you're in for and can opt out of hunting for the box if you want. But when
it comes to other peoples boxes, it's thier box, thier rules. They were just
kind enough to put it out there for me and whoever comes after me to enjoy
it. My responsibility is to be discreet, hide it better than when I found
it, and leave no trace of myself in the area.

Now cheese it!

By your logic, however, why do you feel dogs don't belong in cemeteries?
IF and only IF there's a sign posted by cemetery management that states "No
Dogs Allowed" should you then have any right to complain about dogs in
cemeteries.

.

---------------------------------
Sponsored Link

Mortgage rates near historic lows: $150,000 loan as low as $579/mo.
Intro-*Terms

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






---------------------------------
Sponsored Link

Get an Online or Campus degree - Associate's, Bachelor's, or Master's -in
less than one year.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Yahoo! Groups Links

My degree is in anthropology so I have to say -- I do think there are unwritten "rules". It's
called culture. There are many scientists who spend their lives studying and discussing
and identifying these "rules" [including me] so I don't think it's just all in my head.

Culture in general has base paradigms which are accepted as such -- and also sometimes
are broken, sometimes deliberately [as in "rebellion"] and sometimes through ignorance.
The same is true for subcultures -- like among letterboxers. I have not seen, for example,
anyone disagreeing thus far that items in a box should be sealed up and rehidden in the
exact same spot. Of course no one forces anyone to do so, but that is one example of a
generally accepted "rule" that is a "rule" and if it is broken, the offending party would be
the object of group censure.

There are also unwritten rules in every culture and everyone knows them -- especially
when you break them. Then there are those who actually write down "rules" and share
them with the voice of authority. It is interesting to me, the issue of who has "authority" to
decide and how the decision is made to grant such an authority. For example, your own
post on the subject of "speed boxing" said you felt "alarmed" and that you had some
concenrns, and what they were. You spoke with the voice of experience, but not the tone
of "authority", and were careful to include that you were discussing your own preferences.
You offered good information and much to think about, while making it clear you were
talking about yourself and your own preferences.

This issue came up on the newboxers list in another format. What is a "newboxer"? What
marks a "newboxer"? And when is one no longer a "newboxer"? When does a letterboxer
gain any kind of "authority" within the subculture?

So if anyone would like to decide "no one is allowed to have unwritten rules" I would just
have to say, gee thanks for completely dismissing my hoity toity $80,000 education, there.
:-) Everyone can break "unwritten rules". People can walk down the street picking their
noses so intently it looks like they are splunking. Most Americans would find that behavior
crass and would be uncomfortable with witnessing it. Anothe rexample is to go to a
packed sporting arena or anywhere else with lots of strangers, and go in to use the
opposite sex bathroom. There's a reason why some classic films show that as a "funny"
scenario. Breaking the rules.

For me -- I want to make it as clear as possible -- I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH
DISCUSSING RULES, written or unwritten. I like to know what "the rules" are so I can decide
for myself if I must follow them or not, based on my own judgement and situation. Rules
ar egreat. I am interested in the information and in everyopne's preferences, and in why
they feel that way, why it's a good idea, why not a good idea. Bring it on.

My own post was not about having rules, bc there are always rules. It was in regards to,
who speaks with the tone of authority and to whom is it appropriate to speak so? Who can
cross the line from saying "This is not my preference" or "I have concerns about this, and
this is what they are" and thus make a case for their persepctive to "You are bad." For
example, do I have the authority to walk up to someone with their dog in a cemetary and
tell them they are "wrong"? In general no. That would be highly presumptuous of me. On
the other hand, my 46 yr old stepmother just died of breast cancer, her grave is fresh, and
her headstone cost several thousand dollars. If I am at her grave and I see someone bring
their dog near it, you bet I will say something, bc having it be a family grave gives me the
right, or the authority. [and if that person says to me, "she's dead, she doesn't care, what's
your problem" then there will truly BE a problem]

In other situations, I think it is a question of tone and intent. I've already been told once on
this list I am not a real letterboxer and the letterboxes I find and that I prefer to find, are
not "real boxes." Not, "I don't prefer those sorts of letterboxes" and "they don't interest"
me," but in general, "these are not real letterboxes" and "who knows what I am doing to go
find them but it's not real letterboxing."

Now if I found that insulting, with my paltry 2 dozen finds, I can just imagine this poor
woman who had over 12,000 finds being a little bent of of shape if people start telling her
she is not a real letterboxer bc she found them too fast. You can share your own opinions,
ideas and preferences without deliberatly insulting people. You can say "this concerns me
for the hobby as a whole" without putting yourself on some pedestal. At least, that is what
*I* think.

Thanks for an interesting discussion. My time online is almost up and I have a conference
next week -- so happy Thanksgiving everyone!

Freelance Mystic




>
> We're actually discussing "rules" in this thread, not cemetery behavior.
> Cemetery behavior is the example I used because that was a major complaint
> of a poster. I would be the last person who would want to see someone allow
> their dog to urinate or defecate on any cemetery monuments or stones.
> However, yes I do take my dogs with me to visit cemeteries. My parents'
> graves and grandparents' graves included. They loved animals and my animals
> are very well behaved. They've gotten too old to be anything other than
> well behaved. :-)
>

> So if anyone would like to decide "no one is allowed to have
unwritten rules" I would just
> have to say, gee thanks for completely dismissing my hoity toity
$80,000 education, there.


Can we dismiss your $80,000 education without deciding "no one is
allowed to have unwritten rules"? Please?